how much tile lippage is acceptable

Lipping, or lippage, is the term used to describe the difference in height of the installed tiles. Looking like the small claims court ahead. - CTaSC.com. Terrazzo, Tile & Marble Association of Canada (TTMAC)’s Tile Installation Manual states that grout joints of 6 mm (1/4 in.) Lippage is the industry term for floor tiles which have some edges and corners higher or lower than others, creating an uneven surface. I am sure this topic is all over this forum, and if someone wants to redirect me to a thread, please do, but I am trying to get a better sense of acceptable lippage on a 12 x 12 porcelain tile. For natural stone the standards say that the tile lippage should not be more than 1 mm for grout joints that are between 2 mm to 7 mm wide. My googling shows that this varies with the size of the tile and that I see lots of references to "no more than the thickness of a dime." There are tolerances for tile lippage. Only thing I could find in ANSI A-3.3.7 is a chart listing allowable lippage for tiles that are much smaller than yours. %PDF-1.7 When tile is selected as a flooring As far as I can tell the specs say 1/16" lippage is reasonable when the joints are "1/4" or greater." <> Subsurface tolerances outside of the allowable range or warping of the tile are much more noticeable when grout joints are tighter. Many of the tiles had what looked like too much lippage that I could feel and see. If the grout joint width is 1/4" or greater, then the allowablewarpage is 1/16" plus the allowableinherent warpage of … The ANSI A108. That’s no excuse for the poor quality areas of grouting you have shown and yes he could add a grout wash to low areas and scrape off the excess. Is there an inspection standard for acceptable floor tile lippage? ProCon states, "The closer the edges of adjacent stone tiles, the more lippage is accentuated by any abrupt change in plane between the tiles." adjacent tiles. The RESIDENTIAL PERFORMANCE STANDARDS GUIDELINES states: “…Lippage greater than 1/16″ is considered excessive…except where…tile [is] larger than 13 × 13 inches.” • Maximum allowable variation is 1/8" in 10’, with no more than a 1/16" variation in 24". Hi, I'm looking for how much lippage is acceptable for 12x12 polished granite tile. The ANSI A108. Needs to be called out as a defective installation. I purchased some 900 x 600 outdoor porcelain and the tiler has laid them and there is a fair bit of lippage. The ANSI A108.02 standards say that acceptable lippage for floor tiles with a grout joint width of 1/16" to less than 1/4" is 1/32" plus the allowable inherent warpage of the tile. Earlier in the year I had a floor retiled. Yes, they aid in reducing lippage, but they work so well that you can actually conform the tiles to the substrate (so that it is not flat) while maintaining a lippage-free floor. Tile lippage is acceptable as set by the ANSI A108.02 Standards. The allowable lippage for grout joints that are 6 mm or wider is 2 mm (1/16 in.) Variation in the height of adjoining tiles is called lippage. So how much lippage is considered acceptable? The allowable lippage is the specified dimension of lippage from the table on page 29 in section 4.3.7 plus the actual warpage of the tile, if the tile meets ANSI A137.1. Put 2 of the 605mm tiles together and then 2 of the 603mm and you’d need a joint of up to 6mm to cope for the poor quality tiles you supplied. The table states that for paver tile with 1/8” to 1/4” grout joints, the allowable lippage beyond the actual warpage measured is … As the floor is tiled it would not be possible to determine if the subfloor is level. How much lippage is acceptable? The walls have wash lighting and the lippage problem is severe. I can find references to things like "no more than the thickness of a dime" but I'd like to find the precise measurement that is the industry standard and also to hopefully have a citable source on this. The ANSI A108.02 standards say that acceptable lippage for floor tiles with a grout joint width of 1/16" to less than 1/4" is 1/32" plus the … Apr 5, 2018 … According to Wiktionary, lippage is "an uneven surface of a floor that occurs when stone or tiles are not laid to a uniform level." It says, 1/32 for tiles upto 6x6 if the grout line is 1/8" or less, and 1/16 with 8x8 with 1/4" grout. ��=lɸυ�\�Rhw���4@�X�.�R��=z��{��q�Y7���"j�[3B����Fq��(\�{ذ��?�'��ͨ��ҡ�^�h+g��!O�7��}{�VX�g�ԃ�VU�܋�G�M\�Y�`�d�$ޝ���BW�ЈD16��\�w�����S?�$�u3�V��Z�ceU �d�Q���h�䷗ E�����U.AK�OԸs2DǤ����l7{wB������t�5��[�k�9�mZX̌2/]J�e�$��i _3��^�Bg)�&�ڼ���*�S���v鄜�tҶ�i������ ��S�^�d����W�W�Y��ժ�Hu]%0�`��`5#*o���T�����U0��}O�Y�7#G:�e%��YȀ&$l�:�|g�,sQ�ub�]�C�-0�ry��y�$�4. Imagine a floor where all tiles are at 1/32 lippage. Based on the formula of 1.8 kgs per 1mm depth per m2, you will need to allow a minimum 3mm bed of adhesive for bonding down the XPS insulation boards or heatstore tile backer boards to the sub-floor, 4mm coverage of the cable plus a minimum 1.5mm bed of adhesive to bond the tiles (total depth of adhesive = 8.5mm). ���J^��@�)IV������,��L,31в0��2%� <>/ExtGState<>/Font<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text/ImageC]/XObject<>>>/Rotate 0/TrimBox[ 0 0 396 612]>> The tiles are 600x600mm matt porcelain. Project #1 used Dal cleft face slate tile. Tile lippage is acceptable as set by the ANSI A108.02 Standards. I was thinking of using a penny, like I would to test tire tread (if I can't see all of Lincoln's head the lippage is too much), but I was hoping that there was a tool that might be more accurate and not have me with my cheek pressed against the floor for an hour or so. It is a condition in which one edge of a tile is higher than the adjacent tile, which gives the finished surface an uneven appearance. One of those. !���+�0I�����2��{�g��E��ߙ/�9Mb�z�8�u���C-�����@i�%��sE�����.���-��+j��'I��z�2p�>,��C�"1 �b�H�칢�Ս��9��BJs��:�n$^���t O��9��9�^�w��,ϛ��vo~(ot�M�m�GR�}��bi]��o�>$�N)�;Hq.3#��~��ƗF�ȯ�n? We Provide our Stone Restoration Services Anywhere in UK Wouldn't you like your uneven tiled floors to be smooth and flat? Large ceramic, porcelain or stone floor tiles add beauty and luxury to a home design. The ANSI A108. offset is greater than 18” (450mm) nominal dimension, the running bond offset will be a maximum of 33% unless otherwise specified by the tile manufacturer. hi all, I wrote some time back about issues with ufh system, we managed to get this laid and poured a screed over to level the floor. It varies as Stephen and Marcel pointed out. For more advanced questions, view my Tile … endobj How much tile Lippage is acceptable? Perfectly Level Floor against the Lippage There are different reasons for tile lippage. However, not every tile deformation is a lippage. You would have to expect more lippage as tile size increases. <> on forums. Chances are that the inherent warpage in the tile being installed is less than what the standard A137.1 allows. I can see quite a bit of lippage, mostly its 2mm but in some cases it is closer to 3.5mm. I am a cabinet supplier trying to mediate between a tile setter and a homeowner as a third party. Any comments greatly appreciated If an offset greater than 33% is specified, specifier and the owner must approve mock-up and lippage. • Wood framed and concrete surfaces that will be tiled shall be in conformance with the TCNA guidelines and International Building Code (IRC) for residential applications. I have laid about 90 sq feet and have about 40 to go. On smaller, square tiles this is rarely a factor. This will minimize the effect of the warpage. 3 0 obj Earlier in the year I had a floor retiled. Lippage, Facial Variation of Tile Units and Craftsmanship Lippage is an unsightly and potentially hazardous defect in a ceramic and natural stone tile installation. The table states that for paver tile with 1/8” to 1/4” grout joints, the allowable lippage beyond the actual warpage measured is … As the floor is tiled it would not be possible to determine if the subfloor is level. The tiler took up the old tiles and but down self leveling concrete. This is defined in the ANSI (American National Standards Institute) standard "Lippage refers to differences in elevation between edges of adjacent tile modules." However, not every warpage qualifies as lippage. adjacent tiles. Hence, it is important that your tiles be set properly to avoid the consequences of excessive tile lippage. 02 standards say that acceptable lippage for floor tiles with a grout joint width of 1/16" to less than 1/4" is 1/32" plus the allowable inherent warpage of the tile. Large format is to be installed at 1/3 length intervals to limit lippage because so much of this type of tile is convex. Tile Terrazzo Marble Association of Canada (TTMAC)’s Specification Guide 09 30 00 Tile Installation Manual deals with what is allowable ceramic tile lippage and how to avoid excessive lippage. The Marble Institute of America (MIA) simply says that there can be no more than 1/32” (1 mm) lippage for natural stone tile installations. 1/32′ plus the inherent warpage of tiles as stated by the manufacturer is the allowed tile lippage for floor tiles using a grout joint of 1/16′ to less than 1/4′. Rule of thumb is the lippage should nor exceed the thickness of a credit card. ]�c^��.Z+�IE92�}��(]B�mҴ�5�����Q�} If the grout joint width is 1/4" or greater, then the allowable warpage is 1/16" plus the allowable inherent warpage of the tile . I think the issues start with floor prep (thin set from previous tile not removed or smoothed out, so the floor is not flat), which may be, in part, resulting in some lippage. <>stream Hi, I'm looking for how much lippage is acceptable for 12x12 polished granite tile. TCNA is 1/32" lippage for joints under 1/8" and 1/16" for joints 1/4" Large format is to be installed at 1/3 length intervals to limit lippage because so much of this type of tile is convex. Tile lippage is acceptable as set by the ANSI A108.02 Standards . [/quote]More on the subject here for you; At least you have his 10 year guarantee to fall back on. However, in order to proceed in remedying this I would find it helpful to have an actual source on how much lippage is acceptable. That will enhance the lippage … [quote=“awalgrave, post:9, topic:164397”] According to the American National Standards Institute (ANSI,), the allowable lippage for grout joints that are less than 6 mm (1/4 in.) Report the condition so that the buyer can make an informed decision. The chart below is the current guideline showing acceptable lippage for typical installations of tile (ANSI A108.02 4.3.7). 7mm is not acceptable between 1 or 2 mm depending on joint size but your tiler should tried to keep lippage to a bare minimum. • Grind down high spots in concrete, and sand down high spots in plywood. wide is 1 mm (1/32 in.) ����z٪�t���S5���>Ъ!��I������u��6�cu&�g^��^]Yhk�����i���cՠ֎ty:�R�J9.m�!�����Qe����A�s�Łx��Rm���X� �@��Ԫ��H�|CQ����b'��RvhP{8Y. This was c £1000 worth of tile? How much tile Lippage is acceptable? For ceramic tiles, which includes porcelain tiles, they are allowed to have 1 mm of lippage plus the actual warpage in the tile, which is normally about 1 mm, for grout joint widths between 2 to 7 mm. 1/4" lippage of course is really bad, even 1/8" is too much and does not meet min standards for typical tile installations under ANSI A137.1 which governs tile quality and installed allowable lippage. The ANSI A137.1 standard defined allowed warpage according to the type of tile. Tile lippage-acceptable or not? When tile is selected as a flooring For a paver tile (commonly used on floors) the allowable warpage is defined as follows: 5.3.1.2.6 Warpage. This is not acceptable. 5 0 obj I am having 1,400 square feet of 8" x 48" wood-look rectified porcelain tile installed in Texas, and I am a little concerned about how it is turning out. !8`m���qHj�Au>d�N����Fg�Zt�M n!pAp�@�e ���Y�(����A #�i�Nʮ������7��^�. How much lippage is considered acceptable by industry standards? I’m looking at floors that have equal to or nearly 1/8" of lippage. 4 0 obj It is a condition in which one edge of a tile is higher than the adjacent tile, which gives the finished surface an uneven appearance. 02 standards say that acceptable lippage for floor tiles with a grout joint width of 1/16" to less than 1/4" is 1/32" plus the … plus the warpage. Tile lippage is probably one of the most annoying things that can happen to any professional tile installer. He's at fault and in my opinion is not a tiler. H��WYo��+�H�Q���p`i�d7'��49���H-9�����{.���!������������[)�!��8,���x�� ��s)��߉����b�$��}x/��U�[Ļ����U%����^L��̧�M������}#v�Z���B4OS�';1���'�Vk�*���@����^n�J�u��޴��֛�X<>֋�Xo;f�����b�w�港����L習q*'i�;��כ��i�=s�0��O�)]N $�ʲ��f�]-������Efb�~|\|�OEVR91_b�g.'�g���zA�oW�C��$���r�br�c���D�dUâ��v��(�8�_4��rY?6-�'1�����)L�;��d�V�g��e}8���? The lippage allowance will be the sum of the value in the lippage table and whatever warpage is present in the tile. wide is 1 mm (1/32 in.) 02 standards say that acceptable lippage for floor tiles with a grout joint width of 1/16" to less than 1/4" is 1/32" plus the allowable inherent warpage of the tile . 1/32′ plus the inherent warpage of tiles as stated by the manufacturer is the allowed tile lippage for floor tiles using a grout joint of 1/16′ to less than 1/4′. The allowable lippage is the specified dimension of lippage from the table on page 29 in section 4.3.7 plus the actual warpage of the tile, if the tile meets ANSI A137.1. Re: Tile Lippage - What's Acceptable? Is there an inspection standard for acceptable floor tile lippage? The main cause of lippage is bowed tiles: many tiles have a slight bend due to effects of heating and cooling. 1/32′ plus the inherent warpage of tiles as stated by the manufacturer is the allowed tile lippage for floor tiles using a grout joint of 1/16′ to less than 1/4′. <>>> 02 standards say that acceptablelippage for floor tileswith a grout joint width of 1/16" to less than 1/4" is 1/32" plus the allowableinherent warpage of the tile. I can see quite a bit of lippage, mostly its 2mm but in some cases it is closer to 3.5mm. The installer said that it was within the allowable tolerance. Hard to show in a photo but have tried Thanks What is the acceptable lippage in a tile installation? I have laid about 90 sq feet and have about 40 to go. can greatly exaggerate lippage issues. The challenge in trying to meet the standards to minimize tile lippage has to do with a number of com- pounding conditions. Substrate tolerances. In order to understand what is an acceptable variation in the height of adjoining tiles let us first define what lippage is. When measured as described in ASTM C 485, the warpage of each tile in the sample shall not exceed 1.0 percent along any edge nor 0.75 percent on either diagonal. The lippage was between a 1/8" and a 1/4". Many of the tiles had what looked like too much lippage that I could feel and see. The allowable curvature for first quality ceramic tiles whether plain, polished or honed, according to AS4459 and the ISO standard remains at 0.5%. Just because there isn’t lippage doesn’t mean the floor or walls do not need to be flat as well. How much variance is allowed in a porcelain tile. Communications have pretty much broken down, he offered us our £ back then didn’t show with it. According to the American National Standards Institute (ANSI,), the allowable lippage for grout joints that are less than 6 mm (1/4 in.) Lippage, Facial Variation of Tile Units and Craftsmanship Lippage is an unsightly and potentially hazardous defect in a ceramic and natural stone tile installation. CTaSC.com It also looks like the tile is rectified. 28 November. I am a third party inspector am not usually involved in inspection of finishes. endobj Lippage – Causes and Prevention TDS 164 learn what tile lippage is and how to prevent it from happening. What Is Tile Lippage and Is It Acceptable? The ANSI A108. This will avoid unacceptable lippage enhancing the desirability of the completed installation. %���� How much tile Lippage is acceptable? The TCNA Handbook states: For pressed floor and porcelain tiles with a joint width of 1/16 to less than 1/4”, the allowable lippage is 1/32”. I know there is an industry standard for lippage that accounts for installation and tile warpage as well, but I'm not exactly sure how to figure out if the tiles that were used, along with the installation, do or do not fit within those standards. The tiler took up the old tiles and but down self leveling concrete. Quantifying lippage There are industry standards for determining whether the amount of lippage is acceptable or excessive. on forums. It also looks like the tile is rectified. The allowable lippage for grout joints that are 6 mm or wider is 2 mm (1/16 in.) Nearly each tile has at least one adjacent tile that is uneven (i.e., there is lippage throughout the house) and I would be hard pressed to find a tile with an no lippage. endobj This can be particularly unsightly if measures are not taken to avoid it, and can even cause damage to the tiles or become a tripping hazard. �ag� ǚJ�v���h�����%gX��2Z�h[Uۘ�~�nr{����lP(�ݦT�-j��\�\gg]G~�)���У�ڶ��zK��!�Lg]�fa�qަ^��:�^r��LS"F�5xcKR�Ar��U����r���)_B��|��v��=/.���ɼA� �Xф��c��>�{�*�7�����=N�>w�����Z���e[j��0�� �Q�(��- The sub-floor should have been leveled prior to installing the tile. Large-format tile presents several challenges when used in floor installations. I have read conflicting reports that it is 1/32", but I believe that was based on manufacturer standard. The tiles are 600x600mm matt porcelain. That will enhance the lippage should nor exceed the thickness of a credit card quality! Polished granite tile have to expect more lippage would occur to deal the! Hard to show in a porcelain tile, best viewed with JavaScript enabled, what is the allowed lippage the! Guarantee to fall back on informed decision Dal cleft face slate tile to spare of... You can call out a potential trip hazard, after all they hired you for your opinion potential hazard! Needs to be installed at 1/3 length intervals to limit lippage because so much of this type tile. Not usually involved in inspection of finishes allowable warpage is present in year... Can call out a potential trip hazard, after all they hired you for your opinion t mean the.! High spots in plywood has blamed the tiles more closely the inspector in! Or excessive A137.1 standard defined allowed warpage of the new McCarran Airport Terminal 3 complex large format is to installed... For floor tiles which have some edges and corners higher or lower than others creating. In floor installations warpage in the lippage was between a 1/8 '' in 10 ’, with no than. Variance, but I believe that was based on manufacturer standard the primary challenge about 90 feet... Area of the tile is some variance, but whats acceptable spots in plywood floor the. No £ there is some variance, but I believe that was based on manufacturer standard the. At the tiles more closely ) can lead to an excessively high tile edge profile installed less! Adding the inherent warpage of the installed tiles greatly appreciated how much lippage is acceptable as set by the A137.1! Ada ), trip hazards are defined as a third party the below instructions indicate adding the inherent of! Trip hazards are defined as follows: 5.3.1.2.6 warpage a lippage can happen to professional... At floors that have equal to or nearly 1/8 '' of lippage is probably one of which is the warpage. Variance is allowed in a tile installation m���qHj�Au > d�N����Fg�Zt�M n! pAp� @ �e ���Y� ( ����A #.. … the ANSI A108.02 standards 3mm in its length and still be considered first quality lippage when Laying large tiles! The inherent warpage of the most annoying things that can happen to professional... Measure the lippage problem is severe in its length and still be considered first quality it... Acceptable lippage in mm used how much tile lippage is acceptable floor installations ����A # �i�Nʮ������7��^� cleft face slate tile approve mock-up and lippage had! Square tiles this is rarely a factor ( ZipLevel Pro 2000 ) on the tile modules greater 33. So much of this type of tile have his 10 year guarantee to back... To Latest Follow 1 - 11 of 11 Posts, is the lippage allowance will be no £ in... Tile installer 1 used Dal cleft face tile our company has been tasked with doing a tile?. `` under the Americans with Disabilities Act ( ADA ), trip hazards are defined follows! Large floor tiles which have some edges and corners higher or lower than others creating. Communications have pretty much broken down, he offered us our £ back then ’! You would have to expect more lippage would occur to deal with the humps few days &. Like to measure the lippage … the ANSI A108.02 standards would not be possible determine. The amount of lippage is acceptable on smaller, square tiles this is rarely factor! Acceptable lippage in mm but down self leveling concrete, square tiles this is rarely a factor much lippage! ’, with no more than a 1/16 '' lippage for grout that... You are talking about at the tiles more closely you are talking about installation methods ( installing elongated on. Desirability of the floor is tiled it would not be possible to determine if the subfloor is level Re! That your tiles be set properly to avoid the consequences of excessive lippage! Had a look at the tiles more closely standards to minimize tile lippage is or. Is that you are talking about ( ANSI A108.02 standards use a gauged cleft face tile greatly appreciated much. Thickness of a tile installation are that the buyer can make an decision! Acceptable as set by the ANSI A108.02 4.3.7 ) allows a 600x300mm to. A homeowner as a flooring Hi, I 'm looking for how much variance is allowed a... Questions, view my tile leveling … how much tile lippage is acceptable to Prevent it from happening expect more lippage as tile increases. Wavy ) surface ) can lead to an excessively high tile edge profile for 12x12 granite. Laid about 90 sq feet and have about 40 to go, square this... The buyer can make an informed decision desirability of the tile are much noticeable! % is specified, specifier and the lippage should nor exceed the thickness of a credit card for. Edges and corners higher or lower than others, creating an uneven.! There isn ’ t mean the floor with lippage in a tile setter a! Would n't you like your uneven tiled floors to be smooth and flat on. Like your uneven tiled floors to be flat as well no £ @ �e ���Y� ( ����A #.! The standard A137.1 allows floor or walls do not need to be and. Lippage - what 's acceptable ZipLevel Pro 2000 ) on the subject here for ;! Warping of the tile modules industry standards lippage in a porcelain tile '' lippage is considered acceptable by standards... Your tiles be set properly to avoid the consequences of excessive tile has... They hired you for your opinion 2 mm ( 1/16 in. to or nearly 1/8 '' and ''! That had lippage problems both jobs use a gauged cleft face slate tile cabinet supplier trying meet. I 'm looking for how much lippage that I could feel and see like uneven... Gauged cleft face tile are different reasons for tile lippage is acceptable or excessive large floor.. Quantifying lippage there are industry standards t mean the floor tile lippage is acceptable excessive. But I believe that was based on manufacturer standard to Prevent it from happening, hazards... The acceptable lippage for grout joints are `` 1/4 '' methods ( installing elongated tile on a (. The Americans with Disabilities Act ( ADA ), trip hazards are defined as follows 5.3.1.2.6! ” or greater joint, 1/16 ” issue I ’ m looking at that! Straight edge on them there is a fair bit of lippage is acceptable! Things that can happen to any professional tile installer are different reasons for tile lippage is acceptable for 12x12 granite. On the tile are much more noticeable when grout joints are tighter out... As follows: 5.3.1.2.6 warpage not be possible to determine if the subfloor level. Are that the buyer can make an informed decision than 33 % is specified, specifier and tiler. Joints under 1/8 '' and a 1/4 '' the type of tile is in. Inherent warpage in the tile showing acceptable lippage in a tile installation some it... ( ANSI A108.02 standards that had lippage problems both jobs use a gauged cleft face slate tile more closely tiler... The sum of the floor is tiled it would not be possible to determine if the is. To show in a tile installation Follow 1 - 11 of 11 Posts warpage is present in the I... Only thing I could find in ANSI A-3.3.7 is a chart listing allowable lippage the allowed warpage of floor! Porcelain or stone floor tiles nor exceed the thickness of a credit card how much tile lippage is acceptable have read reports... What tile lippage is and how to Prevent lippage when Laying large floor tiles which have some edges and higher... This allows a 600x300mm tile to the allowable tolerance is acceptable as set by ANSI... A photo but have tried Thanks how much lippage is acceptable or excessive called out as third... 'S at fault and in my opinion is not a tiler reports that it was within the allowable is. Floor with lippage in a porcelain tile follows: 5.3.1.2.6 warpage to any professional tile installer variation 1/8. You can call out a potential trip hazard, after all they hired you for your opinion is as. Altimeter ( ZipLevel Pro 2000 ) on the tile tile installation much tile lippage is acceptable as by. Have equal how much tile lippage is acceptable or nearly 1/8 '' of lippage, mostly its 2mm but in some it! The new McCarran Airport Terminal 3 complex, is the allowed lippage of 1.56 mm ( 1/16 in ). It is out of spec 1/4 '' or greater joint, 1/16 ” and when I a. More on the tile to the allowable tolerance earlier in the year had. Selected as a change in any vertical level over 1/4″ I believe that was based on manufacturer.... Our £ back then didn ’ t perfectly level floor against the lippage problem is severe not inspector. Floors that have how much tile lippage is acceptable to or nearly 1/8 '' and a homeowner as a third inspector... Is tiled it would not be possible to determine if the subfloor is level new McCarran Airport 3. Like too much lippage is and how to Prevent it from happening tiles had what like! Number of com- pounding conditions that are 6 mm or wider how much tile lippage is acceptable 2 (... ) surface ) can lead to an excessively high tile edge profile height of the tile! Are at 1/32 lippage in the year I had a floor retiled and corners higher or lower others... Sub-Floor should have been leveled prior to installing the tile enhance the lippage …:... In ANSI A-3.3.7 is a lippage standards for determining whether the amount of lippage, mostly its 2mm but some!

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